A message circulated by SF Women Against Rape:
There is a serial rapist attacking women near 25th and Potrero. It’s particularly brutal (breaking necks) and he’s doing it in public. Fighting back does not deter him. The police have requested that this not go into the news or posted in flyers as that would lead to him relocating and they’re trying to catch him. So, please spread the word via word of mouth to those who spend time in the neighborhood. He’s doing it around around 4-5am.
And a message from the Fair Oaks Community Coalition:
Today at 6:30 AM, a woman was attacked on 24th Street, and raped around the corner on Fair Oaks Street. The woman has been hospitalized and is under care in San Francisco. The SFPD cordoned off the northwest corner during their investigation, and the fire department was later called to wash blood from the sidewalk. Nancy Deutsch, who lives across the street, found a bloody undergarment in shrubs near her home and gave it to the police, who have classified this as a “very violent crime,” and are giving it their utmost attention.
There were apparently no witnesses, and are no suspects at present – however, in the event that you may have heard or seen something in this area at that time, PLEASE NOTIFY THE POLICE DIRECTLY. Believe it or not, the preferred contact method is not by phone (which ties up the station’s switchboard), but by email or Twitter:
Email: SFPDMissionStation@sfgov.org;
Twitter: @SFPD_Mission
 and he’s doing it in public. Fighting back does not deter him. The police have requested that this not go into the news or posted in flyers as that would lead […]</p>
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Breaking necks? Just who is this rapist, Chuck Norris?
Hey void, that’d be funny except it’s totally not funny.
it was pretty funny ackshully
What would actually be funny would watching void and meep laught together in the ER after getting the asses kicked by Mission Peepes who care about the safety of women.
yes, I agree.. You wouldnt be laughing if it was your mother, sister, aunt, grandmother, daughter, wife or girlfriend .. Dumb ass
Look here, little ms compassion. What’s funny to me is people without a bit of critical thinking skills or common sense mindlessly buying into alarmist bs. It’s not, no matter how Hollywood might try to make you think otherwise, easy to break a person’s neck. What is easy is Googling for information about a crime and not finding any references to 1. a broken neck, 2. The victims being hospitalized. The only people mentioning “broken necks” (plural) is SFWAR. I do however see that two women being assaulted in the same neighborhood within a year by a medium height, medium build black man wearing a black hoodie and dark pants represents a “serial rapist”. Because, of course, no two different people could possibly fit that description.
People need to be able to protect themselves against crime, particularly women should feel safe against sexual assault. I fail to see how throwing out horseshit about broken necks makes anyone safer. “Fighting back does not deter him” and just where the hell did SFWAR get this information from? How is it helpful to tell people this?
I’m sure you got a lovely sense of satisfaction from your outrage at my flippant response to BS. Your “care about the safety of women” calling you to violence against people who say things you don’t like must also impart on you a definite course of action, due to the high value of the information you have been presented with. You must immediately attack any black man of medium height and medium build with a black hoodie, particularly if he has the bad sense to walk down 24th street in the early morning. After all, this animal has the strength to break necks and leave pools of blood. He’s a serial rapist who cannot be deterred by fighting back! It’s the only way to keep women safe.
haha that was funny
heheh
These responses are inappropriate and should be flagged for removal. shame on you. this is a terrible thing, not something to joke about. if this was your mother or sister or girlfriend i doubt you’d all be on here making light of this.
like grief people vent in different ways!
what is funny? i frequent that area several times a week at night. I chose it because i was assaulted waiting for the 23 bus, i chose it because i was chased up the stairs waiting for the J at glen park. it doesnt matter what time she was out! My heart goes out to her. i used to feel safe in this city. No longer.
Go to hell you insensitive idiot. I’ve been sexually assaulted by a stranger IN MY OWN HOME and your comments are in extremely poor taste. I’d like to see you fighting for your life.
Seriously? Read void’s comment. He/she makes some very salient points. The rumor is totally vague and isn’t giving any useful or verifiable information. Plain and simple.
Who the hell are you freakshows who can spend time commenting about something so heinous like its no big deal?
Void. You’re not wrong, and it might be funny to you and great many people …
You’re just an asshole.
Please don’t defend yourself by calling the article alarmist bullshit. Please, just be quiet and don’t defend yourself, and let’s allow the comments to return to matters related to catching/informing about the rapist asshat, not your questionable stand on whatever the hell it is that you’re trying to accomplish here.
Void … turns out it is a serial rapist.
San Francisco Police Make Arrest in Sexual Assault Investigations in the Mission District
12-007
Posted Date: 1/6/2012
On January 6, 2012, at 4:30 PM, San Francisco Police arrested a 32 year-old male San Francisco resident in connection with three sexual assaults which occurred in San Francisco’s Mission District. He was taken into custody at Cesar Chavez and Treat Street by members of the Special Victims Unit and Mission Police Station.
During the first incident, which occurred on June 17, 2011, the female victim had been walking on South Van Ness between 24th and 25th Street when she was approached from behind by the suspect and bear hugged prior to being thrown to the ground. The victim was then dragged approximately 60 feet to an area between a vehicle and a residence where she was sexually assaulted and robbed of her property.
In the second incident which occurred on November 18, 2011, the female victim was also violently attacked from behind along the Mission District 24th Street corridor where she was sexually assaulted and robbed.
The third incident occurred on December 8, 2011 in the vicinity of 24th Street and Fair Oaks. In this incident, the female victim was sexually assaulted and robbed.
With the assistance of a tip from a citizen on the anonymous tip line, investigators from the Special Victims Unit were able to identify a person of interest. This person of interest was later connected to physical evidence located at the scene of the incidents.
The suspect was charged with numerous counts of sexual assault, kidnapping and robbery related to the three incidents.
The suspect’s name will be released at a later time due to pending identification matters.
This is horrifying. Lets all be careful out there.
My thoughts go out to the victims of these heinous acts.
whoah, have multiple people really gotten their necks broken by this guy? that’s horrifying.
This seems suspicious. “Breaking necks” is especially vague and sounds like fearmongering.
And, the message from the Fair Oaks community coalition sounds like it could be the same report as from earlier – the “serial rapist” from 24th and Mission area.
I really hate when people play the game of telephone on these kinds of things.
Why is this ‘suspicious’? There is more information posted by the police department. It’s not very detailed but definitely supports the fact that there were two voilent rapes by a man who also robbed his victims. Anything could have happened, so why belittle the subject? :
http://www.sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=3763&recordid=242
Be safe out there everyone.
That’s the same report as earlier. I’m saying – I think there have been a couple of these types of incidents (possibly the same attacker) in the area, but this is a separate rumor that is a lot more scary sounding.
I am very wary of internet rumors – have you ever seen snopes.com? A lot of stupid crap is shared this way, many times only for the sake of fearmongering and making a story spread.
I don’t doubt that there is a/multiple men out there who are attacking women in the early morning hours in the mission. However, “breaking necks” is sufficiently vague and ridiculous that my hackles are raised. I suspect that someone is exaggerating this story.
I’m hardly making light of it. I just think that we should report and spread the truth, not an overblown, vague, scary story.
Either way – bring your taser, mace (if you actually know how to use it), don’t walk alone, don’t wear headphones…these are always good things to do.
I hear ya. It’s too bad all the adjectives to describe what you’re talking about have already been ruined for this purpose, “shrill,” “hysterical,” etc.
Without minimizing the badness of whatever happened, this sounds to me like “give us a suspect, any suspect.”
Decrying fear-mongering and exaggeration is one thing, but when the issue at hand is keeping women safe from sexual predators, I can certainly let it slide. If hyperbole is the eye-catching element that keeps someone safe from rape, bring on the hyperbole.
Gotta break a few eggs to keep someone safe from rape. Line up the brown people, and remember it’s misogynist to talk about false convictions.
@prince Remember that every study ever done about false rape accusations puts the rate at 5-8%, the same for false theft accusations. Rape doesn’t just happen to women, though, so it’s not misogynist to suggest accusations are false – it IS disgusting and shameful, though!
@prince is talking about false convictions, particularly of brown men where white women are concerned.
You’re talking about something completely different.
You might want to check with The Innocence Project, who exonerate people who spent decades in prison for crimes they didn’t commit. The majority of them were falsely convicted for rape. That should make a thinking person pause and wonder why one category of crime beats all the others as grounds to chain up innocent people.
As a separate matter, check your history about false rape accusations. Learn about lynching and the Scottsboro Boys case, or check this weeks news to read about the burning of a gypsy camp in Italy because of one. They use these to start wars.
Not only are there two different discussions to be had about false conviction (one is too many) and false accusation; We can pull up rigorous studies that put incidence of false accusation as high as 40%, for all kinds of reasons, like widespread occurrence in family court where someone stands to gain child custody. This is certainly different from 5-8% (women’s studies propaganda 101).
Why the difference: because rape is the single crime in existence where they fudge the numbers to measure reports, not reports proven with evidence and followed through to conviction. It is the single crime where they remove due process given for all others, and absence of evidence is taken as grounds for panic about a crisis of unreported crime. Never mind that in the very studies used to claim a crisis of non-reporting, the majority of supposed victims deny that they experienced any crime (in the church of radical feminism, having a drink then sex = rape.) Never mind millions in funding for initiatives the government rates as “nonperforming” (no results measured) and 24-hour hotlines that see little change in the usual trickle of calls. In short, the measurement is so politicized that it’s meaningless.
When the offender is found, hold him accountable. Until then, don’t spread panic. Broken neck rumors = proof please.
My inference, @prince, is that rape has been, historically, one of the most difficult of all crimes to prosecute, due to the fact that it rarely happens in the presence of non-collaborative witnesses, and because reliable DNA evidence was not invented until quite recently. But, combine that information with a common public horror of sex-crimes, and you have a recipe for rape convictions based on very little more than wildly inaccurate eye-witness testimony. I would like it not to be so, but it clearly has been.
In the meantime, while we’re waiting for men (in general) to evolve past their monkey-mind will to fuck everything female (good luck with that happening anytime soon), I would like to suggest that women (in general) get over their resistance to adopting a more proactive technique in resisting rape. To wit, I would like to advocate a more open policy regarding gun control as it relates to female gun owners. In other words, full handgun restriction for men — NO handgun restriction for women. THINK about it! The vast majority of people who have demonstrated their un-trustworthiness with guns have been MALE! Arm the women; dis-arm the men!
“while we’re waiting for men (in general) ”
…speak for yourself…
“Arm the women; dis-arm the men”
…Margaret Thatcher: nuclear warrior for peace
Would just like to point out to everyone implying this is fear mongering racist propaganda that SFWAR or SF Women Against Rape “is a women of color led, volunteer-based organization that has provided rape crisis services to survivors of sexual assault for over 30 years.” (taken from their about page)…
Has anyone else even looked at that site?
Also, the “police don’t want the newspapers reporting this” is hoaxy. They’ve issued press releases with photos. They completely want the newspapers reporting this.
My old housemate rang the San Francisco Police Department and confirmed the incidents. It is absolutely 100% true.
Hey Mr. Rapist,
Since you are into attacking women come and kick MY ass! Anyone who hits or attacks a woman is a PUNK! Go off yourself!
Would it be okay if the rapist was attacking men?
It may be a mishmash of information about a rumor from a year ago:
http://www.sfexaminer.com/blogs/law-and-disorder/2010/12/police-we-do-not-have-serial-rapist
and the current police report of two recent attacks:
http://www.sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=3763&recordid=242
Why would the police prefer information to spread by rumor, with its inherent potential for distortion as it goes, rather than making announcements themselves?
Why would the police prefer to be contacted by email or Twitter rather than a telephone call?
Did you attempt to verify any of this with the police, or just blindly post whatever landed in your inbox?
They did make an announcement, just not in the papers :
http://www.sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=3763&recordid=242
It would be suspicious except that I live a few doors down from the Fair Oaks assault and, even though I was awake at the time it happened, I heard nothing. He could be pressing down on their necks to stop them from making noise and fracturing vertebrae in the process?
Or just have a gun pointed at them.
Or a knife since they found a lot of blood
Time to roll those guardian angel dudes
The police notice for the Potrero Ave. incident says attempted murder as well as sexual assault.
http://www.sf-police.org/index.aspx?page=3763&recordid=216
The Potrero Ave and Fair Oaks incidents are the only two noted on the SFPD website so if there are more than that the police are keeping quiet about it. Sounds like there are more, according to commenters in the other thread.
when did sketch artists start signing their work????
I read the police report. Nowhere is there *anything* about “broken necks” and “blood all over the sidwalk”, as if the fact of rape wasn’t bad enough in and of itself. That there is a serial rapist out there is terrifying.
I agree with you. The emails circulating are sensational. That’s doesn’t mean they’re untrue. I’m just pointing out that this rape is also officially reported as attempted murder, which seems consistent with blood on the sidewalk.
Where’s Charles Bronson when you need him?
There was a post on the Bernal Parents email group this morning. Apparently a nurse at county general said something to someone about the rape and leaked the ‘broken neck” info. I totally understand that the police want to contain the details, but the public deserves to know what kind of women this person is targeting and if this has happened more than two times. As a woman, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW so I can prevent this from happening to me (or my fellow sisters).
“but the public deserves to know what kind of women this person is targeting”
Mmm, women with necks?
I don’t understand what your point is.
I asked the same question and my friend who is a bartender wised me up. All kinds of women are awake at that hour. She sees it every early morning on the way home from work. Nurses, people in the service industry, nannies on their way across town. Do not take comfort in the fact that he seems to be operating on one street and at an hour when you are not awake. You think he can’t switch streets at a whim? You think he can’t suddenly decide to change times? Nowhere in any of the reports have they mentioned prostitutes which I am embarrassed to say was my first idea. And even if it were it’s still horrifying.
I would like to know if a certain “type” is being targeted as well
i doubt they will be able to make any conjectures if there are 2 victims. Not a large enough sampling mathematically to say anything for sure. Hopefully it won’t get larger and we will not know the answer to that question.
The first woman being attacked on 25th between potrero and Hampshire was waiting for the 33 bus.
That guy is EXTREMELY dangerous (he left the 2 victims in the coma-I asked an officer who was present on crime scene) and we have the right to know the TRUTH about those rapes AND how many.
What is the police doing? I feel like in that country if you want to be safe then you can only count on yourself !
I live near the Hampshire / 25th stop for the 33. I have always found it creepy and too secluded. I won’t wait for a bus there after dark. Or let friends do so. Check nextmuni and see when the bus arrives. Since it’s the beginning / end point for the 33, you can sit on the bus w/ the driver before it takes off.
We need batman. And more information, please. This is scary stuff.
Happened “between 4-5am.” That’s around the time I got robbed in the outer mission, at gun point by a couple ghetto youths less than a year ago. I learned to not walk or wait for the bus at that time. Since the assault, I cab it or ride a bike.
There are some really F***ed up people that are out at that time. What worries me is that this dude is so wacked “he’s doing it in public.”
These comments for the most part are insensitive and ignorant. This is horrible thing that has happened. We should be spending our time trying to help the victims instead people as debating on the severity of the attack. Think about what you write !!!!! Send a card to the mission station for her if you want to do something.
Actually, they bring up some valid points. The information spreading about these crimes is pretty wild and inconsistent. They’re horrible, to be sure, but accuracy is important and I’m seeing very little of it from my fellow Mission denizens.
Hmm. A post that appears to be aimed at mocking hysterical fear-mongers ends up attracting a horde of fear-mongering trolls…
What could be happening here?
Oh wait, I mean “a horde of first-time-posting concerned citizens.”
Pretty positive I walked by the crime scene on 24th and Fair Oaks yesterday…saw two police car, an ambulance and a person being put on a gurney…feeling pretty sick to my stomach about the whole thing
Here’s a little more on this.
http://sfist.com/2011/12/09/sexual_assailant_at_large_in_the_mi.php
This moral panic about scary brown rapists is surprisingly mild and reasonable so far.
Nobody had better mention that stranger rape is the rarest form of violent crime, and any random guy is 2-4 times more likely to be assaulted or murdered than any random woman. When people get shot in this neighborhood, it’s probably their fault for joining a gang.
Don’t dare to tell a woman to carry pepper spray or a stun gun as a precaution. Precautioning=blame, and it’s mutually exclusive from supporting appropriate punishment for the offender. This is why we need more slut walks.
[citation needed]
How does urging precaution=blame? That makes no sense. And how is it mutually exclusive from supporting tough punishment? That is just idiotic.
If this rapist is found, he should be punished severly. In the meantime, women who need to be out and about in the early morning should consider taking extra precautions. That is just rationale.
Slut walks are just dumb political theater that are about ideology not actually dealing with the real issues.
Hear, Hear.
Probaly one of theese white fucks that just moved into the neighborhood and hopefully hes only gettin other white yuppies!! Cuz aint no sympathy for white people that try and change the culture of a neighborhood by moving here from other states and wonder why they are hated in this neighborhood
stupid little mexican siding with a black rapist!? he’ll get yo sister, fat moms, and YOU too, chap bitch!
are you native american? if not, you migrated here as well and changed quite a few neighborhoods a little more drastically than these “white fucks” changed yours. think about that, yeah?
“Precautioning” just might save your *life*. Don’t you think it’s worth a little precaution, whether you get ‘blamed’ or not? There is no Batman; there is no one to look out for you — take care of yourself. Take self-defense classes and learn situational awareness. Find others to team up with to make sure you both get home safely.
Very sad to hear this news, will def tell my friends who are living in the Mission and in SF in general. Personally, I would never walk around the mission solo at 4-5 am or even after dark for that matter. Be safe people! Keep your eyes and ears open. I once saved a woman from being mugged in the Alamo Square area. She parked in her driveway and was walking about 10 steps to her gate when a guy grabbed her from behind and tugged on her backpack. She struggled, not wanting to let go until I heard the tussle as I was walking up the hill with a friend. I thought it was a domestic quarrel and ran over to discover she was being mugged. The only weapon I had was my voice, so I yelled, “help” over and over and over again until my friend ran up the hill and jumped on the guys back. Neighbors finally started coming out of their houses.. the guy ran off and the woman and I sat down on the bumper of her car. “I couldn’t give it up” she said. I just wrote a song and it was in my back pack. I had no money”, she said.. “I just couldn’t give it up”.
If you see something, call or do something. Reports say most people expect others to be the ones to call or offer help.. keep your porch lights on–get a neighborhood watch going. Communities come together. <3
is there a suspect description? how many victims?
http://forum.blackhairmedia.com/women-pee-on-rapist_topic327117_page1.html
An old friend of mine was attacked and almost raped in a parking garage before she got away. She now carries a “small gun” in her purse, which gives her psychological support when she finds herself in isolated, after hours type situations. As politically incorrect as handguns have become, I would suggest it could be the right solution for this type of situation, arm yourselves and use if if you need it, and should you use it,, leave the guy dead on the street and walk away, so you dont have too get dragged into the afterpercussions////
Please report violent crimes via Twitter, not by calling 911. Right.
No no. They’re saying that if you have TIPS about the crimes then e-mail/twitter them, specifically so that 911 can be left for people reporting crimes that are actually happening right now.
I’m pretty sure that’s just part of the plan to make sure nobody knows for sure when to call 911.
If you think someone is following you, cross the street.
If they cross the street, cross again.
IF they cross again, cross once more. If they are still following you go to ANY HOUSE AND RING THE BUZZER. Start yelling HELP! HELP ME! HELP! RAPE! RAPE! RAPE! CALL 911! Yell this over and over and over until someone comes out. Sometimes it takes a few seconds for people to wake up and realize they aren’t dreaming and to go to the window to look.
Keep spray perfume in your bag if you don’t have pepper spray. Aim for the eyes.
Hold your keys, (one key between each finger protruding out just in case you get that close that you need to punch.
The most delicate place to punch in just above the groin or the eyes, stomp on the persons foot. NEVER let the person take you to a second location, NEVER!
Carry mace, a taser, a whistle, Perfume that sprays. Get it in their eyes which will buy you time and the predator will be more easily identifiable.
Try to mark them, scratch their face, something that could identify them.
They say not to talk on cell phones or wear headphones while walking at night alone, I guess it can keep you from hearing someone sneaking up behind you.
If you must walk alone at early am hours or late at night, walk in the middle of the street.
Be careful lovely goddess, I’ll be praying for all of your safety..
OM~
DO NOT EVER YELL HELP RAPE!! ALWAYS YELL FIRE FIRE DIAL 911!!!! People instinctually care only about themselves and will 99% call when its a fire but maybe 25% wont get involved in a violent crime in fear they will be next.
What ever works. *
BTW: I think you may have meant to say, “You’re wrong” (just say’in)
@your wrong is totally right about the FIRE/RAPE thing–I found that out the hard way. I was walking home from work around midnight (yep, another one of “those women” who have to walk at night because–shocking–they don’t work 9-5) and was attacked from behind, stabbed in the shoulder, then sexually assaulted. Not rape, thank god, but still nasty.
After all that went down, I ran down Shotwell to the corner at 15th St., half-clothed and bleeding, and saw a couple walking their dog across the intersection. I yelled, “HELP ME!!” and started to cross the street, only to have the dog-walking couple start walking away from me at an extremely brisk pace. It’s fucked up, but sadly a lot of people really do care only about themselves.
BTW, this is not an account of a current crime–it went down about 5 years ago.
Oh! I am so, so sorry to hear of your experience. It is a sad and confusing world when people do not respond to someone bleeding and visibly in ditress. I am so sorry. Sadly, you are right, I have seen people literally STEP OVER a profusely bleeding senior citizen that was lying in the street that I was trying to help. This happened well over ten years ago and I still remember the rage and frustration. Again, I am so sorry that you went through this.
You guys know this is a BS post right? There were sexual assaults in the 24th/Fairoaks area, but not rape and no broken necks. SFPD would not hold back on information that might put other women in harms way, just so the rapist would hit again by breaking another woman’s neck? It is not even logical to do that! MO is not the only thing that solves crimes, it’s used to link evidence/intel.
Anyways, it’s disturbing that someone finds this bogus mis-information funny! It’s not. Here is the information directly from SFPD on the Fairoaks area:
http://www.sf-police.org/index.aspx?recordid=242&page=3763
Yikes, many of these comments are show how creepy/weird/inappropriate people get when the crime is rape. How about we just frame this as what it actually is — a violent psycho physically assaulting what appear to be total strangers on the street, leaving more than one in a coma?
*Everyone* should be alert and careful when walking around a large city at night, regardless of their gender, why they are out at that hour, and whether or not we happen to know about someone violent on the loose at the time.
The Fair Oaks Neighborhood association is hosting a candle light vigil this Wed. at the corner of 24th and Fair Oaks. A few different times have been mentioned (6pm, 7:30pm). Decision still needs to be made. I will update here when I know more. If you come, please bring a candle (and perhaps some sage?). We want to reclaim our neighborhood. We will be on the corner of 24th and Fair Oaks.
Also, the police department is delivering cards to the victim as they come in. Our goal is to get her at least 100 cards. Bring them to the vigil as well.
Vigil at 6:30 tonight.
Hey sf, thanks for the update and Fair Oaks Resident, thanks for the info. Thanks to everyone who commented, actually. Nice to see people getting involved. I will repost on other thread. Glad they are having a Vigil in Fair Oaks. Sending cards to the victim thru Sf police and FONA is great. This woman needs a lot of support right now. <3 Om~
being PART gypsy;i cant walk or ride ANYWHERE in any neighborhood;especially mission dist>(my hood)without being:WATCHED;AND WATCHED AND WATCHED;STARED AT and STARED at;AND WATCHED AND WATCHED AND WATCHED;no matter what time of day or night(i might be stealing something you know how “us”people are)but yet.. no one ever seems to be watching the streets when obvious thiefs;crackheads ect. complete with bolt cutters ect are prowling the hood;lurking in doorways;smoking crack(yeah yeah i drink my 4os throughuot the hood)NO ONE ever seems to notice;why the f##k aint you STARING AND STARING AND STARING AND WATCHING AND WATCHING THEM???????nice goin..”hood”
What the hell are you talking about?
Meth head complaining about crack heads. It’s a war out there, you see.
THE CIRCLE OF LIFE
I think nightmare joey confused Mission Mission with Mission Madrid. http://www.nytimes.com/1991/10/12/world/madrid-journal-war-on-drugs-becomes-a-war-on-the-gypsies.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
Allan – please update the SFPD Mission twitter handle so that folks can correctly follow them.
Long time ago when I was going to college, I was working as a barista and needed to be at work at 5:30 a.m. I used to walk around the Mission/Dolores area at 4:50-5:00 a.m. in order to get to work. In order to feel safe, I used to carry pepper spray on one hand, and be always on alert.
Women out there that walk any area that early should always be aware and trust always your instinct. When in doubt … run like a mothertrucker!!!
sad to see the small dikd jokers on here that think rape or assault stories on here are a good opportunity to show keyboard courage and wittiness. we all know you would never dare make such ignorant remarks in public without getting b1tchslapped like you deserve
Personal security is a basic responsibility that every person has, yet most people seem to completely take it for granted or ignore it altogether. The solution to this problem is simple: women should get concealed carry permits and the basic training to be able to quickly and effectively draw their weapon and drop an attacker. Then purchase a small, lightweight weapon, and when traveling alone carry it. If enough women did this (it wouldn’t take very many), rapists would cease to exist. This monster would attack and then suddenly hear several very loud explosions and see brilliant flashes of light, feel a searing pain in his chest, then lose all strength, drop to the pavement, and realize that he was about to die as a terrifying chill enveloped him. If you’re worried about being attacked and care about others, take responsibility, get real, arm yourself. The cops will probably never catch this savage, and even if they do he’ll be back on the streets before long, if not in SF than somewhere else. How many more women will he devastate before somebody stops him?
Stupid idea.
That’s really wonderful commentary, herr doktor, thanks so much for the intelligent feedback.
No worries! Anytime you want someone to tell you when you’ve got a really bad idea, just let me know. I’m there for you.
Maybe an assailant will think twice if he thinks women are packing. And he should. Because assailants pick their targets based on walking patterns, the way arms swing, the confidence a woman carries on the street, amount of eye contact. Maybe he’ll pick a woman who will shoot him in self-defense. I don’t think we would be at a terrible loss in the world if this guy transitioned into the next. Why is that a stupid idea?
Absolutely anything that involves putting more guns on the street is a stupid idea.
I mean, seriously, this whole “an armed society is a polite society” canard is pretty thoroughly discredited at this point. An armed society is not a polite society. An armed society is fucking Somalia.
herr doktor, your comments are speculative and poorly supported. The US has the most heavily armed civilian population on Earth (with 90 guns per 100 people), far more per capita than Somalia. Does total chaos and anarchy exist here? No. Northern Israel is the most openly armed society I’ve ever been in, with almost everyone carrying a gun all the time. People don’t lock their doors there. The crime rate amongst the people that live there is almost nil. Rural northern New Mexico has the highest per-capita number of guns in the US, and a man would have to be suicidal to try to rape someone there. So if more women in SF carried guns, it is fair to say rapists would think twice before attacking.
Crazytalk.
YEAH! You’re totally right! The police should also carry guns because then criminals would cease to exist in the same way your plan would eradicate rape.
Ohhh…wait…
@ Jenn: the Police do carry guns, and if you had ever lived in a part of the world without police you would appreciate the value of that. And I didn’t say anything at all about “eradicating criminals”. I clearly spoke specifically about rape, which is one of the most hideous crimes and is very infrequently successfully prosecuted, therefore rapists tend to operate with impunity. Encouraging people do defend themselves rather than assuming that it’s “someone else’s” responsibility is, in my opinion, a good idea. If someone tried to rape me (again) I would shoot them without hesitation.
Wow, you seriously missed my point (and sarcasm) about the police. The threat of the police, someone that just about everyone knows will be carrying a weapon, is far from sufficient in stopping any type of crime, including crimes perpetrated against officers. Your notion that just a few women carrying guns would cause “rapists [to] cease to exist” is both extreme and blatantly absurd. Not only does it completely ignore the fact that most rapes are not stranger rapes or ambushes, in the case of an ambush it calls for incredible reflexes. If you are a nurse walking to your job at SFGH and someone grabs you from behind and throws you to the ground, where is your weapon? Do you have time grab it? Would the act of fumbling about for it while someone who has been proven to be extremely vicious stands above you perhaps endanger your life further? Training yourself to use a handgun in a controlled situation does not inherently prepare one for using it in a highly stressful, dangerous situation in which you feel your life may be at risk. It’s not as though you will “know” someone is coming to rape you from blocks away and be able to ready your weapon. The far more likely situation is that this is someone you already know, or in the case of an ambush, by the time you are aware that you are in a dangerous situation the person often already has physical control of you or at the least is in very close physical proximity.
Yes, talking about potential practices to defend ourselves and increase our safety is more than worthwhile, it’s incredibly important but I am sorry – your statement that anything a target of rape can do will cause rapists to “cease to exist” entirely seems quite ridiculous. Perhaps you used that phrase for dramatic effect, but whether you intend to or not (and as another survivor, I give the benefit of the doubt that you did not intend to) that kind of attitude places the burden and responsibility of ending rape on the shoulders of victims and potential victims and that’s both unreasonable and unrealistic.
I am not questioning whether a woman has the right to defend herself; I am questioning whether women carrying a gun will have an impact on how frequently rape occurs.
Also, finally, pardon the caps but I am not retyping a copy and paste “THE DATA PRESENTED IN THIS REPORT INDICATE THAT PRIVATE HANDGUN OWNERSHIP PROVIDES NO SIGNIFICANT DETERRENT TO BURGLARY AND VIOLENT CRIME. IT MAY, IN FACT, ESCALATE THE SEVERITY OF THE VIOLENCE IF OFFENDERS BELIEVE THEY MUST BE MORE HEAVILY ARMED THAN THE CITIZENRY.”
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=35035
Sorry to say, the statistical analysis you reference here is absurd. This report takes all instances of injury due to guns and makes sweeping generalizations about the utility of individual citizens arming and defending themselves. People failing to keep their guns locked up when at home (and then maybe a kid getting a hold of it) has nothing to do with women defending themselves on the streets. As far as the suggestion that owning a handgun provides ‘no significant deterrent” to violent crime I beg to differ. In my neighborhood, in the past year, two armed burglars with violent criminal records have been shot and killed inside houses they were trying to burgle, after attacking the occupants. The concept that attempting to defend oneself will “escalate the severity” of the situation is precisely what makes victims such easy prey. I agree with you that an untrained person will probably not benefit from having a weapon, and if armed they could very well worsen their situation if attacked. Your solution — encouraging women to not arm themselves, is borderline comical. Obviously training is required to be able to effectively use a weapon in a surprising and life-threatening situation. And yes, any woman being raped is in a life threatening situation.
And on the police comment: obviously the fact that police are armed in a HUGE deterrent to crime… ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
Sorry to say, the statistical analysis you reference here is absurd. This report takes all instances of injury due to guns and makes sweeping generalizations about the utility of individual citizens arming and defending themselves. People failing to keep their guns locked up when at home (and then maybe a kid getting a hold of it) has nothing to do with women defending themselves on the streets. As far as the suggestion that owning a handgun provides ‘no significant deterrent” to violent crime I beg to differ. In my neighborhood, in the past year, two armed burglars with violent criminal records have been shot and killed inside houses they were trying to burgle, after attacking the occupants. The concept that attempting to defend oneself will “escalate the severity” of the situation is precisely what makes victims such easy prey. I agree with you that an untrained person will probably not benefit from having a weapon, and if armed they could very well worsen their situation if attacked. Your solution — encouraging women to not arm themselves, is borderline comical. Obviously training is required to be able to effectively use a weapon in a surprising and life-threatening situation. And yes, any woman being raped is in a life threatening situation.
And on the police comment: obviously the fact that police are armed is a HUGE deterrent to crime… ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
You’re funny.
1. Where do I say that “my solution” is “not arming women”? Oh, that’s right – I don’t say anything even remotely resembling that. But nice stretch. My primary point is that your argument that women carrying guns would end rape entirely is beyond absurd.
2. You say that the police being armed is a “HUGE deterrent.” While that is certainly arguable and virtually impossible to prove, the primary point here is that you very dramatically chose to say that rapist would “CEASE TO EXIST” if a “few” women carried guns.
3. As for your comment about the statistical validity of the study I referenced – you’re right, your anecdotal comment about two home invasion in your neighborhood is much more compelling!
4. Finally, returning to your original point about a few women and rape ceasing to exist – why don’t you look up the number of rapes in a state with lenient concealed carry laws, such as Arizona, and compare them to a state with the strict concealed carry laws, like California. I could only find matching data on the incidence of rape statewide for 2006 and there are actually more rapes (when measured on a per capita basis) in Arizona than California.
Look, if you refuse to abandon your initial outlandish statement, or simply admit you grossly over exaggerated, then at this point you’re essentially just a troll.
Also,
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-14/europe/30278442_1_police-officers-norway-guns
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1429849/Police-dont-want-to-carry-guns.html
You’re also funny!
1. Your initial comment has a list of reasons why carrying guns is not a good measure to take for self defense and is in fact potentially detrimental, followed by a reference stating that guns don’t deter violent crime. So you did, by repeated implication, say something “remotely resembling” the notion that women should not arm themselves.
2. This is a sensitive subject for me (obviously?) so my apologies for exaggerating with the “cease to exist” comment, I didn’t realize it would create such a fixation for anyone. I stand thoroughly corrected: a few women carrying guns will not cause rapists to cease to exist.
3. The statistical study, like most, selected a package of data that would support an argument. The same data, if sorted differently, could suggest entirely different conclusions. Anyone who has studied statistics knows it’s bullshit, spin, manipulation of data. Anecdotal evidence might be limited in it’s usefulness but it’s definitely worth considering.
4. This is especially funny. How lenient concealed carry laws are is one variable in a very complex framework and doesn’t in-and-of-itself prove anything. I would bet that the vast majority of permit holders in any state are men anyway.
Lastly, having strong feelings about something that has had a huge and devastating impact on my life, and wanting to discuss it, hardly makes me a troll. Nice chatting with ya.
Despite the tragic bomb and gun attacks that killed dozens this summer, Norway doesn’t want to change.
Reports from Norway suggest that 60 percent of police officers questioned in a recent poll don’t want to remain [UNARMED], and that notion is being officially supported by the police officers union the Politiets Fellesforbund.
The police [DO WANT EASIER ACCESS TO WEAPONS] when needed, however, a police spokesperson told Norwegian Broadcasting (NRK) this week.
Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-10-14/europe/30278442_1_police-officers-norway-guns#ixzz1gmJLsFLO
The second article you listed is pretty interesting, food for thought.
No, my initial comment was a sarcastic remark very distinctly referring to the notion that the use of guns would eliminate a criminal act. I am actually in no way against guns for self-defense but I also hate to see anything, but most particularly guns used as a panacea for crime. I provided various different articles and pointed out scenarios in which guns may not provide for safety because, well, they won’t always make us safer. That’s just a simple fact and denying it seems really quite ridiculous. And most importantly, I do not believe that any woman is going to be safer if she believes that she has a fail proof method for preventing rape unless that method will actually never fail. Yes, this is also quite a sensitive and personal subject for me as well and I can tell you that encouraging a false sense of safety can be extremely psychologically difficult when what you were so sure would protect you, fails you. Your grandiose statement sounds very strongly to me as though you are implying that if you arm yourself and are properly trained, you will never be raped.
You say that I am simply becoming “fixated” on your exaggeration without purpose but let me make it clear that I am objecting not only to the hyperbolic nature of your statement, but also the fact that you’ve clearly proposed that guns provide a potential solution to the global rape pandemic and I see no evidence for that. That does not mean I believe that women should not be prepared to defend themselves when they believe it is necessary or that guns cannot or should not be part of that. But I will also tell you that anyone who has done training and education around this topic (I don’t know if you’ve taken the state certified training) knows that there are situations in which freezing and doing nothing has saved women’s lives and that doing so is an extremely valid survival mechanism. I believe that, for the most part, our survival instinct is able to persevere and guide us to act in a way that is most likely to help us escape the ordeal with at least our life.
Also, the quote you attempted to pull from that article is very obviously a typographical error. First of all, simply look at the title of the article “Norway’s Cops Don’t Want Guns.” Then click the link that the sentence you quoted is citing which states “A survey of the union’s own members showed that fully 60 percent of the police officers questioned said they do not want to be armed at all times.”
Again, this is the article from which the one you quoted cites:
“A survey of the union’s own members showed that fully 60 percent of the police officers questioned said they do not want to be armed at all times. At present, they only arm themselves after receiving authorization in dangerous situations.
Johannessen said that after evaluating the survey, comparing Norway’s practice with that in other countries where police are armed, and talking with weapons experts, Fellesforbund had decided to officially support the policy that being armed will not be standard practice in Norway.”
Get Real is hilariously full of crazy.
herr doktor, if you have something constructive or informative to add the discussion, feel free to contribute. If being a sniveling little troll is all you can muster, fuck off. So far all of your comments have been worthless.
Jenn, you’ve made good points, thanks for the discussion.
One thing I’ve learned over the years: Life is too short to spend trying to have a logical debate with hoplophiles and other cultists.
On the other hand, however, I’m never one to miss an opportunity to mock someone who deserves it. So, y’know, in that light, my laughing at you probably makes more sense.
‘Herr Doktor’ – while I do appreciate your creative license in making up the word hoplophile out of hoplophobe I have to agree that your commentary isn’t particularly productive given that ‘get real’ did attempt to actually engage in a logical debate and conceded that good points were made that countered her initial statement. Also, life is too short to attempt to have a logical debate but not for mockery? What’s the time differential there? But seriously, can’t we try to make the internet a better, less obnoxious place? Please?
Not sure what you mean, “Hoplophile” is a completely cromulent word. Google returns about 100k hits for it.
As for arguing with cultists vs. mocking them, in terms of what is a better use of one’s time, I’d always opt for making the world a better place through laughter. It’s a gift, really.
Nice job congratulating yourself herr doktor, but I’ll bet that you’re the only one laughing. Do you think you’re funny? Your comments make you seem like a grandiose prick, actually. Your mockery achieves one thing: it generates hostility (can you tell?) The discussion here has led me to question my views on gun ownership, both Seriously’s assessment of some of the statements that I made (in frustration) and some of the information from Norway and the UK. That’s the purpose of discussion, to help people formulate and refine their opinions, and possibly change. So if it was up to you and the groovy wisdom you’ve gained “over the years” this “hoplophile” (you don’t even know me so that’s a ridiculous accusation) would learn nothing and change not at all. Great contribution, Wise One (that mockery thing is kind of contagious).
Again, no problem! As I said, anytime you want someone to let you know when you’ve got a really bad idea, I’m here for you.
stupid idea
Yay! Now you’re on the trolley!
now;im a meth head..i thought i said 40s..thank you..hood full of real intellects.the only war is with people like that..for “us” its war everywhere(mostly vs. ignorance)might as well be mission madrid..if i hear a female SCREAMING anywhere,im usually the only one responding to help;rather be a meth head than a crack head..we ARE talking about protecting our females of ANY race arent we?i do hope that stays the issue here..thank you.. i dont take ANYTHING personally..glad ya noticed..PROTECT OUR FEMALES EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME..that is the issue.we ARE talking about this absolute creepy coward stalking females???/one of the worst offenses possible..and cowardly??/thank you intelligentsia of the mission(madrid)
Article states:”Fighting back does not deter him.” False! When a woman is pinned down, she should remain at “zero.” Zero emotion, zero response, zero fear showing (if possible). All of this emotion when pinned encourages an assailant. When a woman is NOT pinned, able to move around, fight, or run, it is encouraged that she beat the crap out of her assailant. I learned this in model mugging class when I was seventeen. She can yell 9-1-1, and “NO.” Do not use the word “help” as it is not recommended for as strong response from near bystanders. Go for targets on the groin, knees, eyes, and behind the knees to swipe down of the attacker. Women have powerful hips which they can use to fight. Model Mugging is a great program. Women can learn how to deal with an armed assailant, a from-behind attack, or a large man yelling derogatory profanities. Women: use your voices, your keys, your fingers, hips, kicks, and go for the hot spots – groin, knees, eyes. If pinned, show nothing, and stay at zero with no physical resistance like a limp doll. Wait for your opening. Make eye contact if you can with blank stare. Assailants enjoy the struggle, fear or emotional release. Give them nothing & fight back as soon as you have an opening!! Remember, yell 9-1-1 at the top of your lungs!!
Also, when in choke hold or held from behind, use elbows to dig into the attacker. Use feet (look down) to stomp super hard on your attacker’s foot. You can use this to get free and yell 9-1-1.
@alwaysfightback, I think the statement “fighting back does not deter him” wasn’t a call to be more passive, but was acknowledging that the people who were attacked fought for their lives. Thanks for the good fighting tips.
sfpd releases video of suspect http://missionlocal.org/2011/12/sfpd-offers-reward-and-releases-video-of-sexual-assault-suspect/
This link was forwarded to me regarding some inaccurate perceptions listed about Model Mugging women’s self defense training. Other groups have complimented Model Mugging by copying the padded assailant concept, but instruction can be diluted.
We have decades of research and experience behind our Role Model Mastery training for women’s self-defense that began in 1971.
Great enthusiasm for the Model Mugging program from ‘always fight back’!!! Thanks!!!
However some comments about the program are dangerous. The full range of tactics will not be discussed in this forum. The description mentioned about waiting for an “opening” from various rape positions is inaccurate and tactically unsound; the “remaining at zero” concept should not be taught and can be dangerous. “Staying at zero emotion” can set-off some rapists or abusive partners into a violent rage. There are more appropriate tactics that can be applied.
Most importantly, it is important to clarify that Model Mugging does NOT teach women to always fight back. Model Mugging provides full force self-defense training that enhances the option to fight back and win – however only if a woman decides to select this option. The goal is not to “beat the crap out the assailant” but skills are practiced so as to incapacitate the assailant in order to improve success in getting to safety, then call 9-1-1.
We empower women with more realistic rape defense choices they may not otherwise have during a sexual assault. Then students practice various physical and verbal options in adrenaline stress scenarios that are progressively designed and personalized against a trained instructor wearing protective body armor. A female instructor role models the techniques and coaches women. Physical and emotional safety is essential during the scenarios, which are conducted in a progressive manner that is based on the mastery capabilities of each student (age, physical limitations, history of trauma, etc.). When combined with the understanding of sex crimes and rapist typologies, it is the full force fighting experience that impacts personal safety and overall awareness of our students.
There are many variables involved when confronted with a violent offender. Each person must assess their situation whether to fight back or employ other measures.
Surviving Is Winning!
http://www.modelmugging.org
Thank you for responding, it is so very important to hear clear, level-headed, realistic advice and information. My father who was in law enforcement for near thirty years had very similar advice and tactics and I try to remember them always. Thank you for the voice of reason.
regards and respects;so the many concerned will know:i AM in the area as many early morning hours as possible;silently riding the sidestreets;alleys;carefully listening(for any potential screams)using the shadows as cover;to potentially view anyone who may be furtively sneaking up on a female in this area;and hopefully intercept any potential attack.hopefully this adds in some small way to the protection of the females in the area;a potential rapist may now want to stay out of the area.my earlier post went over the heads of the keyboard warriors who want to mock;insult;and addthier “funny” little comments to this disgusting situation.i do not appreciate some of you KEYBOARD COWARDS with your bullshit;insensitve remarks and “jokes” your making(you reading this “herr doctor” and others??)about this situation;im concerned this creep may climb through someones window and do this to a little girl;as well as attack again.if you continue to make stupid insulting remarks and stupid insults and “jokes”about this situation;someone may let me know who you are and i will deal with you personally;if possible;if you are attacked..SCREAM AS LOUD AND LONG AS POSSIBLE(my advice)
San Francisco Police Make Arrest in Sexual Assault Investigations in the Mission District
12-007
Posted Date: 1/6/2012
On January 6, 2012, at 4:30 PM, San Francisco Police arrested a 32 year-old male San Francisco resident in connection with three sexual assaults which occurred in San Francisco’s Mission District. He was taken into custody at Cesar Chavez and Treat Street by members of the Special Victims Unit and Mission Police Station.
During the first incident, which occurred on June 17, 2011, the female victim had been walking on South Van Ness between 24th and 25th Street when she was approached from behind by the suspect and bear hugged prior to being thrown to the ground. The victim was then dragged approximately 60 feet to an area between a vehicle and a residence where she was sexually assaulted and robbed of her property.
In the second incident which occurred on November 18, 2011, the female victim was also violently attacked from behind along the Mission District 24th Street corridor where she was sexually assaulted and robbed.
The third incident occurred on December 8, 2011 in the vicinity of 24th Street and Fair Oaks. In this incident, the female victim was sexually assaulted and robbed.
With the assistance of a tip from a citizen on the anonymous tip line, investigators from the Special Victims Unit were able to identify a person of interest. This person of interest was later connected to physical evidence located at the scene of the incidents.
The suspect was charged with numerous counts of sexual assault, kidnapping and robbery related to the three incidents.
The suspect’s name will be released at a later time due to pending identification matters.
I was supposed to be renting a beautiful studio appartment on fairoaks street but this has completely put me off!
Tourists are reading this page and it is hard not to be extremely scared as a single woman travelling on her own from Europe.
Scare mongering or not?
All this information is just plain scary
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