When Self Edge took over the old Leather Tongue Video space a few years back, I thought to myself, “Oh great, some high-end Marina douche boutique has displaced a beloved Mission landmark.” Over beers the other night, Kiya Babzani, owner-operator of the place, informed me that apparently this was a pretty common misconception in the early days, as Self Edge was repeatedly vandalized and he and his employees were shouted at, muttered at and spat at.
Mind you I’d never patronized Leather Tongue, because who the fuck has even seen a VCR in the last 12 years? But it looked pretty punk rock and I guess I liked knowing it was there.
Now it’s gone, but its iconic signage lives on on the wall at Bender’s Bar. We grabbed a table right under it and talked Self Edge. At 18, Kiya (bespectacled in above photo) got obsessed with denim, indigo and Japan’s obsession with old American stuff, and a little over a decade later he found himself ready to open the only store in the country specializing in nothing but Japanese reproductions of vintage American garments. He opened it in his favorite neighborhood, where he’d been living since age 20, and it was a success from the start. Despite static from neighborhood haters, there was a global community of aficionados ready to jetset their way to the Mission to browse the wares of such a discerning specialty shop.
In fact, as seems to be customary, upon arriving at Bender’s, Kiya ran into several people he knew, and among them were a pair of travellers from London called Jon and Angi that had been by the shop earlier in the day. They’re newlyweds on an epic journey around the world, and though they had but a couple days in San Francisco, they spent two full hours at Self Edge. Jon said that of all the retail shops in all the cities they’ll visit on their year-and-a-half-long intercontinental tour, Kiya’s tops the list, by a longshot. He had a boatload of jeans shipped back to England.
Denim obsession is a fascinating thing. Kiya for instance wears the same pair of jeans every day for six months, then retires them forever and moves onto the next. He buys jeans that don’t fit him, and never will, solely because of their artistic merit. He knows all about dyes and stitches and can explain exactly why my Levi’s have holes in certain places and not others.
Some people nerd out over vinyl or bourbon or bike parts or comics. Others lose their minds over jeans.
Kiya and his fellow obsessives trade news and knowledge on a website called Superfuture, a lively community with forums devoted to travel and shopping – and denim in particular. People live their lives on this thing, keeping track of new innovations, new endeavors and new collaborations. Self Edge collaborates with other organizations and manufacturers and designers on a regular basis. We mentioned their most recent one last week, and next on the horizon is a jean even more certain to blow minds on the forums.
There’s this user called ringring, respected above most others for his comprehensive knowledge of denim and textiles and the whole history of fashion. Nobody knows who he is or what he does for a living. Nobody, that is, except Kiya. They’d been in touch since ringring made a clandestine early morning visit to the shop a while back, and at some point Kiya managed to convince him to collaborate on a jean. Kiya says the forthcoming single-stitched SEXTXRR10 will not be a standard five-pocket jean. This may mean absolutely nil to the layman, but it’s bound to be big news on Superfuture. And when the release date arrives, people will be lined up around the block, and crashing the Self Edge website’s servers.
But does all of that mean Self Edge isn’t a “Mission business”? The shit’s expensive, but that’s because it’s the shit. Like with Ritual‘s coffee or HMS Beekeeper‘s honey, buyers pay a premium for premium goodness. Moreover, this is a group of people from the neighborhood using the internet to forge meaningful, productive, real-life relationships with people within our little bubble and people well beyond it, and that’s surely something to be celebrated.
This weekend, it all comes together. Self Edge and Superfuture host their annual SuperParty at the shop tonight, sponsored by Fernet, with giveaways from the most prominent garment companies, and it’s sure to draw hundreds and hundreds of partiers from the Mission and around the world. Sunday, the party continues at Bender’s, Kiya’s (and many a Missionite’s) bar of choice, where beer nerds can nerd out on a special barrel-aged brew by Russian River Brewing Company. A seven-ounce pour of Consecration may cost $8, but c’mon, it’s the shit!
Photos by Sidney Lo, Nicole Lee and Andrew Ng. Click photos to view photo page.
Previously in “Fashion”:
American Apparel Controversy Comes to an End
Huh, that is fascinating.
Allan, this is the best post yet. Nicely done — it’s the shit.
Mark, are you happy now?
It’s interesting, but I still have a hate-on for high-end denim. How amazing can a pair of jeans ever be?
Self Edge is certainly as much a “Mission” business as any of the Valencia Street boutiques. Remember the giant chasm dividing them from the rest of the crap around here, for the poors?
[...] a self-reflective post on denim store Self Edge, Allan Hughes of Mission Mission discovers why we should all hold judgement when a strange new storefront moves to our hood. (By the [...]
Thanks, Allan, for this great post on a great store.
I like Self-Edge too.
I stopped in for the first time just a month or so ago. The folks are really nice, informative, helpful and cool. The product is definitely quite expensive, but so incredibly well-designed and -made that you feel you have entered a new dimension of denim expression. It also feels sooo good. I spent money I was going to spend on a supposedly-necessary technological peripheral instead on one black denim shirt. I want to wear it to bed, it feels so good. But I haven’t worn it out yet, ‘cos I don’t have sufficiently texturally-contrasting pants cool enough to wear with it.
Meave, I can understand, but, perhaps like Allan, I was swayed by the good vibes of the store, the people and the product. Very different than other high-end denim, esp. the mass-market high-end and the pseudo-Euro, and even the L.A.-boutiquey high-end. I think a Japanese denim obsession is perhaps not unlike a sake obsession or a manga obsession or something (please excuse my ignorance of real Japanese culture): a bit strange, perhaps, but productive of amazing great things.
Thanks for all the feedback, everybody. This was a fun thing to put together. And Meave, “Hate-on” is my new favorite thing to say.
See you all at Bender’s tomorrow (today)?
The party was seriously insane, and i’m sure if you went anywhere near 18th/Valencia tonight you saw it bleeding through the front door of the store.
See you all at Benders tomorrow at 3pm.
always h8ed leather tongue and it’s ugly ugly aesthetic.
seems like geeking out on consumption goods is the new American past-time….I fail to see the difference between this and the new $20/lb chocolate store in Noe valley….seems like it is by definition douchey….but at least its a mom-pop (or 20something-30something) operation as opposed to corporate chain so thats one positive thing….
either way, its just another facet of the materialist obsession that is this nation….
hey piscesproject – is the pisces you? are birthday greetings in order? if so, happy birthday!
well, i think that there is a difference between “d-bag” and “gourmet” or “connaisseur”. and there is something else, like a wide demographic of high-end materialistic consumers and identifiers-through-consumption (thank you, Thorstein).
the d-bag thing is partly defined by being clueless about any real aspects of a situation, including gourmet aspects – sorta of a disneyland-ification of everything, an assimilation to one’s on-the-make, out-for-yourself d-bag ways and ‘tudes (not that i’m hatin’ on d-land! my 4-year-old goddaughter was there today!).
then there are the labels “gourmet” and “connaisseur” vs. the real deals.
i think the self-edge thing is different, though. it’s about doing something cool really, really well. there are chocolates like that. there are other things like that. (“denim and chocolate” – is that a blog?) and those things often cost a lot! i s’pose it could be decreasing marginal utility with exponentially increasing price, but, hey, people are doing it…
i don’t see self-edge as catering to people who have to have a brand or a label to be cool, but to people who appreciate really good, well-made stuff.
what made the difference for me was the people at the shop, who were very cool and very generous with their help and information – just fun, interesting, good people.
in the meantime, it seems like it’s been goin’ on for a lonnnnnng time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspicuous_consumption
piscesproject,
You said “its just another facet of the materialist obsession that is this nation….”
You really should leave the country a bit more.
You obviously don’t realize that what we (as Self Edge) do is something that’s extremely new in America, as we’re still the only store in the country doing it, but it’s a type of retail store that has existed in Japan/Taiwan/HongKong/Singapore since the late 80′s. We essentially brought something that’s been consuming thousands of Asians obsessed with American garment history, workwear, turn of the century fabrics, and more to America. It’s nothing new, a little bit of travel and research would have displayed these facts for you.
Damn pissyproject, what ever happened to just liking nice, quality things regardless of a price tag? I guarantee if you tried on a nice pair of denim and maybe a top as well, you would fall in love with the quality and construction of the garment(s) and discover a new found appreciation for it. Hell, you might go out on a limb and even change your name!!!
“How amazing can a pair of jeans ever be?”
How amazing can a cup of coffee ever be, or a sandwich, or a simple loaf of bread???
People are willing to pay extra for a cup of coffee or a loaf of bread made with care and love, from “honest” ingredients. They recognize the extra attention put into what they are buying.
Yet the moment it’s about clothing, people want as cheap as possible and as outsourced as possible.
Instead of hating on people who have a fascination with finding the most amazing pair of jeans, you should applaud that they are willing to put in the extra effort, and not just make that cup of coffee with extra care, do their best to find the most amazing ingredients, but take it further and apply the same mentality to other parts of their life, because, in the end, it’s the same really…
Yea, everyone is buying those jeans cause of the quality and craftmanship (roll eyes). $60 Levi’s last me for years; this is a specialty shop catering to fashionistas with lots of money, nothing more nothing less. A Levi’s store would better suit the neighborhood, but I doubt they’d even get past a meeting with the leasing agent due to the protests. I’m not saying this place shouldn’t be around, but let’s not act like they’re selling goods at a fair price and doing the neighborhood any favors.
I do no understand why people would have a problem with Self Edge. It’s tiny and run by a single proprietor. It isn’t attracting waves of douchebags to the neighborhood. Sure, the prices are expensive. But the quality of clothes is so far above and beyond what you find at other retailers that it is warranted. Besides, who are you to criticize those who enjoy beautifully constructed garments? All I’m saying is: Self Edge represents the small-store spirit that the Mission should support. Some don’t like the price, but irrespective of that there is nothing to complain about.
hey, I have no problem with them being there or with people who want to pay huge amounts of money for products that they like. But I really disagree that it has the “small store spirit that we should be supporting”. It’s a specialty store for rich people. It’s not a mom and pop store there to help out the average consumer.
To anyone railing on expensive denim and materialism, it isn’t all that expensive. You can get some of the best denim availiable for $300 to $350, but that would only get you an entry level suit at Men’s Wearhouse. The denim is much more fun to have than the entry level suit, I can promise you.
SE is a great store that delivers what its customers are looking for. I hope it hangs around.
$300-350 for a pair of jeans is expensive, now matter how you try to spin it.
How would Levi’s, a mass-produced product made in Chinese, Thai, Sri Lankan, etc factories, be a better fit for the Mission?
The companies that produce the products that Self Edge sells pay their employees living wages; some of the products are even designed and manufactured in the US, and in SF.
Jeans sold in Nordstrom, Bloomingdales, and the like are for rich fashionistas. The products Self Edge carries are understated and do not have show off labels or features. These are products for people who care about quality.
well i dont think $300 is a lot for a pair of jeans, considering that i will year it everyday. and it will last for many years and will look better with age. something a $60 levis cant do.
meh. all my jeans I’ve found secondhand through the years around town. I don’t make enough to justify 300$ for a pair, so yeah – i’ll never ever see the inside of this store.
i honestly don’t see a difference between this store and, say Marc Jacobs in LA. it’s all high end bullshit for people with money. if it’s still in business 18-24 months from now consider the business venture a success.
good luck.
Regarding this comment: “it’s all high end bullshit for people with money.”
Not everything that is high end is bullshit.
There is plenty of stuff in the world that I can’t afford, but I can still admire and appreciate it.
“we’re still the only store in the country doing it”
Kiya, I’m sure you’ve heard of that other store in New York that opened a little before Self Edge.
I don’t have a problem with Self Edge products, being myself obsessed with denim I accepted the fact a while ago that if you want a good product, you have to pay for it (even though it seems prices keep getting higher. I remember only paying a little over $100 for my first pair of Sugar Canes) . There are two schools of thoughts when it comes to jeans, the “they’re just pants, you have to be an idiot to pay more than $60 to cover your leags” one against the “I’m a connoisseur and therefore I’m so much smarter than all you idiots wearing crappy Levi’s” one. As far as I remember, they have always been fighting and will always be.
@kiya – regardless of the rhetoric, i hope this is proving to be good PR for self edge.
i personally need a few more gym sessions before i can shop your store…but i think the product is great.
So much hand wringing over aesthetics. This is why letting the market sort things out is the way to go. Don’t like ‘em? Don’t shop there.
Rather play hardball local politics? Don’t be surprised when that one comes back to bite you in the ass.
Blue in Green is a good store too, but they aren’t a denim store. High quality mens wear, including many great jeans, but they aren’t dedicated to repro and vintage influenced garments like Self Edge is.
jtown if you have never been in Self Edge or dealt with the employees there than how can you say it’s just “bullshit?”
It’s more than just a store for people with money, and its not just a “store for rich people” as crowder says. I make minimum wage and save up a small amount over a long period of time so I can buy a product from Self Edge because I love denim and high quality garments and I know that they will last me an extremely long time.
I encourage you to browse through the store. If you handle the goods and speak to the people I am positive you will see a difference between Self Edge and a fashion boutique such as Marc Jacobs.
Of course 300-350 dollar jeans are expensive. A fucking 8 dollar smoothie is expensive. Do I need a 50 buck prime rib dinner, no, but it’s what I wanted: Fucking top of the line meat!!! Regardless, everyone spends their money on something “high end” whether it be jeans, gadgets, or some other shit.. Or, you tuck your money so far up your ass you are perpetually backed the fuck up.
“Blue in Green is a good store too, but they aren’t a denim store. High quality mens wear, including many great jeans, but they aren’t dedicated to repro and vintage influenced garments like Self Edge is.”
I strongly disagree with that statement. Blue in Green was the store to seriously introduce Japanese jeans in the US, and they still carry a lot more repro brands than Self Edge. Self Edge has more of a cow boy/rock’n'roll vibe, which is the image they developed and seem to be successful with, but introducing limited editions in slim cuts and promoting them on countless blogs and fora has a lot more to do with sneaker culture and creating hype than selling authentic reproductions of old garments.
I’m not saying a store is better than the other (I don’t live close to either store), but just wanted to clear things up.
To go back to the neverending price question, if you don’t feel like forking $300 for a pair of jeans, don’t, but don’t go post on the internet saying it’s stupid. I’m sure you have your own stupid ways of wasting money.
@Den – thanks for your use of “fora” as the plural of “forum”.
well played.
I am sure the product is great but I would never shop there. Not cause I’m a hater, I’m just fat and poor. I wish anyone success when it comes to a start up business. I know exactly how hard it is. Good Luck. Also Allan, as Johnny O said, this is a well written piece. Thanks.
I think that the difference between “expensive” and “overpriced” is being overlooked by many in this discussion.
Also, the denim sold at Self Edge is meant to be worn frequently. Very frequently. The “rich” would not do this, as they’d scour Saks Fifth Avenue over the course of a year and spend $1200 on denim in a year by looking for quantity and variety of a lower-quality product with a high markup because of the store it is sold in and the names on the labels.
Many who shop at Self Edge purchase one pair of $350 denim, and will not purchase another casual bottom for their wardrobe for 300 days. That’s the point!
Sure, you could try to do this with some $60 Levis, but I doubt you’d get through the year wearing one pair that still looks nice and has not fallen apart.
I went to Self Edge on January 3rd for one pair of jeans for the entire year. I had no idea the names/designers/brands of the garments I was trying on, but the pair that fit the best was purchased and I have worn them every single day since. I don’t plan on wearing anything else until 2010, when I’ll make another trip to SF and Self Edge for a new pair.
It’s a different mentality than the rich, materialist descriptions above. Plus, as an exclusive shop, it brought me all the way to San Francisco from Houston, TX, where I supported the mission district from halfway across the continent. That [i]has[/i] to help your community, if nothing else.
If you look at it that way, the jeans cost less than a dollar a day. That’s less than I spend on either coffee, or gas, or food, or cable, or internet, or just about anything I use / enjoy on a frequent basis.
If anyone can set up a shop on Valencia that sells quality goods — jeans, honey, whatever — and it has both neighborhood and international appeal, I congratulate and welcome them even if I don’t shop there. Just hire local. The Mission alone may not be able to support you, but quality both talks and walks (with the help of UPS).
Solution: blow up the Mission district. It’s what the locals want, apparently.
“I don’t plan on wearing anything else until 2010, when I’ll make another trip to SF and Self Edge for a new pair.”
What are these things made of, Kryptonite? You all must live in a sterile, padded bubble if you can wear the same pair of pants day in and day out.
“What are these things made of, Kryptonite? You all must live in a sterile, padded bubble if you can wear the same pair of pants day in and day out.”
For what it’s worth, the jeans that are currently display at Self Edge are my personal pair that I wore for 367 days from March 10th, 2007 until March 10th, 2008. They held up quite well, and are not even considered the most rugged jeans you can purchase at Self Edge (which would be, hands down, Iron Heart denim).
Just wanted to clear something up…
To those that keep referring to what we sell as a “rich man’s jean”, you’re misinformed, delusional, and i’d hope you come in to see exactly what type of person is really buying our products.
They’re bar-backs, waiters, bike messengers, writers, local musicians, bartenders, dish washers, fire fighters, and even the unemployed. These are people which are far from “rich” and are the core of the working class of the Mission and San Francisco. They save up for what we sell because they enjoy it, whether it’s for it’s durability, history, or the way it ages, they get it and they like it.
Granted we do sell to the rich, but that’s not who’s supporting the store on a day to day basis. This is my third retail store, if i wanted to sell to the rich i would’ve opened up Downtown/HayesValley/Marina like every other boutique, i opened up in the Mission because i wanted to be able to walk to work and didn’t care to cater to the bourgeois.
I would like Self Edge a whole lot more if the people there weren’t so smug. There’s definitely a sense of elitism because they are wearing some cool japanese jeans. It’s funny because you can get American-designed, American-made jeans for cheaper that are just as high quality from, for example, Crate denim. The difference is that it’s A) cheaper and b) lacks the denim-snob appeal of japanese products.
I have nothing against people who shop at Self Edge but a lot of them are paying for the exclusivity and (let’s be honest here) status of cool foreign jeans. Sure they may be working class people but lots of working class people buy Marc Jacobs and Louis Vuitton and other designer stuff. I would say that their priorities are out of order but that’s their choice, not mine. Now stuff from those designers is also high quality but the real question is: are you paying for the quality or are you paying for the label?
Bottom line is that Self Edge does sell an exceptional quality product at extravagant prices because that’s what some people are willing to pay for the equivalent of indie jeans. With all the hipsters in the Mission these days, I’d say that Self Edge is more representative of the hipster new Mission than the old working class Mission.
1. “Blue in Green is a good store too, but they aren’t a denim store. High quality mens wear, including many great jeans, but they aren’t dedicated to repro and vintage influenced garments like Self Edge is.”
Name, this is truly a “sucking a dick” comment. I want to get one thing straight first —-!!!! I’m not dissing on Self Edge or hating on Kiya because he’s providing denim for the west coast !!!!!!, but debasing Blue in Green with fictitious comments (even in the article) deserves
to remove their selvage from their denim.
2.”Sure, you could try to do this with some $60 Levis, but I doubt you’d get through the year wearing one pair that still looks nice and has not fallen apart.”
In my experience and observation, totally untrue. I think most of you guys are just lying to yourself to justify buying a pair of $200-300 dollar jeans. I have seen people go through a whole year with “cheap” levis (another discussion -lets not degrade levis because it’s only $60 dollars) or even AE, GAP, or whatever you guys will find inferior. I’m sure you guys will find many examples on SuperFuture of Japanese denim to fall apart just as easily and I guess this is only aspect that should be
3. So then what makes these Japanese more superior than gap, AE, j.crew, levis, lee’s, list goes on? Craftsmanship. Probably the most important in my opinion. Of course, you’re going to say, well if craftsmanship is considered, shouldn’t it be durable then? True. True in some cases. If the material is made with “kryptonite” then sure, it’s durable, but SugarCane Mix, Zimbabwe cotton, Texas cottong, Pubic hair Mix, whatever the cotton is, it will rip if you’re going to dry hump a cement sidewalk with no matter what kind of pairs of jeans you have. Yea, I too have $200-300 jeans, NOT because of durability, but because it requires the most dedicated craftsmanship to make a good pair of jeans. If the artisan was using Paper to make the jeans, BUT, he was enthusiastic, dedicated, passionate, perfectionist about making it and was selling it for $500 dollar, I would buy it. Adolf Loos my friends, Adolf Loos.I love it when I read denim mags that the artisans are super passionate about making jeans. They get orgasms when they fucking dip the denim in the indigo or put rivets, etc. etc. The only pair I have is Oni Shoais and my goodness, a beautiful pair of denim. Definitely to look at if you are a denim aficionado, save up for those.
4. You get a golden star Kiya for providing Denim connoisseurs in the west coast. Big thanks to Kiya AND Gordon for providing denim in the country. And big thanks to superfuture for making me a denim lover for life.
1. “Blue in Green is a good store too, but they aren’t a denim store. High quality mens wear, including many great jeans, but they aren’t dedicated to repro and vintage influenced garments like Self Edge is.”
Name, this is truly a “sucking a dick” comment. I want to get one thing straight first —-!!!! I’m not dissing on Self Edge or hating on Kiya because he’s providing denim for the west coast !!!!!!, but debasing Blue in Green with fictitious comments (even in the article) deserves
to remove their selvage from their denim.
2.”Sure, you could try to do this with some $60 Levis, but I doubt you’d get through the year wearing one pair that still looks nice and has not fallen apart.”
In my experience and observation, totally untrue. I think most of you guys are just lying to yourself to justify buying a pair of $200-300 dollar jeans. I have seen people go through a whole year with “cheap” levis (another discussion -lets not degrade levis because it’s only $60 dollars) or even AE, GAP, or whatever you guys will find inferior. I’m sure you guys will find many examples on SuperFuture of Japanese denim to fall apart just as easily and I guess this is only aspect that should be
3. So then what makes these Japanese more superior than gap, AE, j.crew, levis, lee’s, list goes on? Craftsmanship. Probably the most important in my opinion. Of course, you’re going to say, well if craftsmanship is considered, shouldn’t it be durable then? True. True in some cases. If the material is made with “kryptonite” then sure, it’s durable, but SugarCane Mix, Zimbabwe cotton, Texas cottong, Pubic hair Mix, whatever the cotton is, it will rip if you’re going to dry hump a cement sidewalk with no matter what kind of pairs of jeans you have. Yea, I too have $200-300 jeans, NOT because of durability, but because it requires the most dedicated craftsmanship to make a good pair of jeans. If the artisan was using Paper to make the jeans, BUT, he was enthusiastic, dedicated, passionate, perfectionist about making it and was selling it for $500 dollar, I would buy it. Adolf Loos my friends, Adolf Loos.I love it when I read denim mags that the artisans are super passionate about making jeans. They get orgasms when they fucking dip the denim in the indigo or put rivets, etc. etc. The only pair I have is Oni Shoais and my goodness, a beautiful pair of denim. Definitely to look at if you are a denim aficionado, save up for those.
4. You get a golden star Kiya for providing Denim connoisseurs in the west coast. Big thanks to Kiya AND Gordon for providing denim in the country. And big thanks to superfuture for making me a denim lover for life.
5. is RingRIng Gordon??? no…okay. just wanted to make sure. I wish someday I can open my own denim store.
1. “Blue in Green is a good store too, but they aren’t a denim store. High quality mens wear, including many great jeans, but they aren’t dedicated to repro and vintage influenced garments like Self Edge is.”
Name, this is truly a “sucking a dick” comment. I want to get one thing straight first —-!!!! I’m not dissing on Self Edge or hating on Kiya because he’s providing denim for the west coast !!!!!!, but debasing Blue in Green with fictitious comments (even in the article) deserves
to remove their selvage from their denim.
2.”Sure, you could try to do this with some $60 Levis, but I doubt you’d get through the year wearing one pair that still looks nice and has not fallen apart.”
In my experience and observation, totally untrue. I think most of you guys are just lying to yourself to justify buying a pair of $200-300 dollar jeans. I have seen people go through a whole year with “cheap” levis (another discussion -lets not degrade levis because it’s only $60 dollars) or even AE, GAP, or whatever you guys will find inferior. I’m sure you guys will find many examples on SuperFuture of Japanese denim to fall apart just as easily and I guess this is only aspect that should be
3. So then what makes these Japanese more superior than gap, AE, j.crew, levis, lee’s, list goes on? Craftsmanship. Probably the most important in my opinion. Of course, you’re going to say, well if craftsmanship is considered, shouldn’t it be durable then? True. True in some cases. If the material is made with “kryptonite” then sure, it’s durable, but SugarCane Mix, Zimbabwe cotton, Texas cottong, Pubic hair Mix, whatever the cotton is, it will rip if you’re going to dry hump a cement sidewalk with no matter what kind of pairs of jeans you have. Yea, I too have $200-300 jeans, NOT because of durability, but because it requires the most dedicated craftsmanship to make a good pair of jeans. If the artisan was using Paper to make the jeans, BUT, he was enthusiastic, dedicated, passionate, perfectionist about making it and was selling it for $500 dollar, I would buy it. Adolf Loos my friends, Adolf Loos.I love it when I read denim mags that the artisans are super passionate about making jeans. They get orgasms when they fucking dip the denim in the indigo or put rivets, etc. etc. The only pair I have is Oni Shoais and my goodness, a beautiful pair of denim. Definitely to look at if you are a denim aficionado, save up for those.
4. You get a golden star Kiya for providing Denim connoisseurs in the west coast. Big thanks to Kiya AND Gordon for providing denim in the country. And big thanks to superfuture for making me a denim lover for life.
5. is RingRIng Gordon??? no…okay. just wanted to make sure. I wish someday I can open my own denim store.
Hell yeah there’s a sense of elitism in a sense of having a quality pair of jeans that last!!! Like ol’ boy was saying, the people who are coming in and buying these jeans are everyday people who actually wear their shit and demand better quality garments for everyday wear. Some of you busters are caught up in the
“hypebeast” perception and think we jock this shit because of some blog or trend or some shit. I can’t believe the hipster bomb got dropped. If you take half the time to put yourself on point, you will know this ain’t no hipster shit. Hipster don’t even like to pay full price for a beer!!! If you wanna rock Crate or Levi’s go ahead. Who gives a shit, do you. The majority of people can’t even tell the difference of any denim!!! But don’t go hatin on someone else’s shit cause they decided to copp denim or anything that deemed to be exclusive or on some trendy shit. Half of you people don’t know the difference between designer and quality. You think that shit floats in the same boat. Nope. Regardless, you still jockin our fresh.
ok, no line-ups anymore.
Den, you raise a great point about intersection of sneaker culture with so-called authentic, vintage inspired items. Not too fond of that myself to be honest. Limited edition is a major pain and doesn’t seem entirely consistent with the actual product at times.
On the other hand, I still do disagree that Blue in Green is a “denim store” at all like Self Edge. I have been to both plenty of times, and both stores are great. At Blue in Green the denim section is one fourth of the store area and in the back, while at Self Edge denim takes up the entire main floor. This is the distinction I was trying to get at, that the two stores present themselves differently and market to different customer bases.
Another aspect of their differences: Soho VS the mission and the people who live in these neighborhoods.
@ mydenvermax: proprietor of self edge lunches at Epic Roasthouse and Spruce….people in the mission can’t lunch at those places….think about it when you make your distinction between “expensive” and “overpriced.”
Or drinking at clock bar (micheal mina’s bar)
see http://twitter.com/SelfEdge
The jeans there are overpriced, so much so that he has the luxury to eat and at those establishments.
some samples from the owner’s twitter account:
# Went to Heaven’s Dog with Eric (from Town Hall)… Worst restaurant of 2009, no joke.about 10 hours ago from TweetDeck
# At Heaven’s Dog with Eric.. Getting stuffed and wasted.about 13 hours ago from txt
# At the Clock Bar, Hubert Keller is at the bar drinking…about 16 hours ago from txt
# Lunch with Simon from Superfuture at Epic.about 23 hours ago from TweetDeck
kiya:
explain how you rape and pillage money from “bar-backs, waiters, bike messengers, writers, local musicians, bartenders, dish washers, fire fighters, and even the unemployed” so that you can enjoy lunches at Spruce and Epic Roasthouse and drinks at Clock bar.
I like you jeans and wear them often but your hypocrisy is disgraceful. You argument simply does not hold water when people know the facts.
Boomtime anyone?
Uhm, i don’t know what strange alternate reality you live in.. But i go to those places with people that LIVE in the Mission, work in the mission, and own some other business in the Mission.
What kind of qualifying factor do you need to make me “mission enough” for you?
Also, you also don’t realize that i’ve got two other retail stores including a completely unrelated manufacturing business. If you worked as hard as i do, maybe you’d be able to afford to have a burger at Spruce too.
Spruce does make a nice burger.
Hey let’s not paint Kiya as some Mission district aristocrat. Once I was walking down 16th and Valencia at night and he was passed out on the corner with a construction cone on his head.
Don’t worry @bodah, I think Kiya’s just frontin’.
Where all the haters come from? Oh, wait, you all never left.
Bodah, it goes back to what we were saying about having the appreciation and taste for nice things. If you want to limit your life grind to only eating PBJ’s that all on you. But when you cross over and bash others for having a different “pallet” then you’re wrong. Did you ever thing that some people may have been poor all their lives and thought maybe someday they would like to have nice things. When I touch down to SFO, I hit all the shit up too. People can choose to spend their money and whatever they want: it’s their choice. He’s not raping anyone. You’re raping my ears with the shit you’re saying though. I forgive you though, you don’t seem to see the other side.
You a Twitter stalker Bodah? That was on some gumshoe shit….
bodah hit a nerve with that one…
no staking, just did some google research before putting in my two cents.
for me it is surely not about being “mission enough,” it is more about representing that you are part of the neighborhood and that your customer base generally blue collar. to those points and those points alone, I provide evidence that 1) you make nice a profit, so much so that you can enjoy luxuries that your consumer base and/or neighbors cannot, and 2) it is hard to imagine someone being part of the mission that frequents those establishments.
like i said prior, I like your jeans, nothing against those personally…this is simply more evidence for people to extrapolate what they want from it…..don’t shy away from facts, even if they are less than flattering. and surely don’t have your crew lash out at me when i simply put up unfavorable facts….that makes it seem like you have something to hide.
i’m entitled to my opinion as much as you are entitled to over-charge for a product….it is what we call liberty.
PS: I’ve know Mark Sullivan and his team since they started Village Pub…they do make a nice burger.
How can you possibly know Mark Sullivan if you’re from the Mission?
@bodah: “this is simply more evidence for people to extrapolate what they want from it…..don’t shy away from facts”
If we’re going to be technical here, you’ve presented fact mixed with opinion, so saying “I like your jeans, nothing against those personally” doesn’t really diffuse the real intent of your post.
You’ve made it clear that you dislike Kiya’s living habits and that they are not up to snuff with your standards of what an upstanding, empathetic business owner in the Mission District should be.
“2) it is hard to imagine someone being part of the mission that frequents those establishments.”
So, let’s get into this discussion. Define the Mission District as it stands today. Let’s go over the economic landscape of the Mission in comparison to the rest of San Francisco. Once we nail that down, we can make generalized statements of what is to be expected of residents in the Mission.
God forbid kiya has a diverse customer base that’s both local and global, and allows him to buy a pricey lunch for the guy he co-designs with.
What degree of financial success is unacceptable for your Mission, bodah? Maybe things are different in Miso.
Kiya: Family friend, people who live in the mission also venture outside said domicile (e.g. work and recreation)
Sidney:
1) Most posts on this thread contain a mixture of fact and opinion, pointing out that my post is no different does not prove any point.
2) I have no ulterior motives behind my posts and stand behind what I said previously: pointing out that SE representing that it is part of the neighborhood and that its customer base is generally blue collar is “interesting” in light of these two facts 1) SE make nice a profit, so much so that you can enjoy luxuries that your consumer base and/or neighbors cannot, and 2) it is hard to imagine someone being part of the mission that frequents those establishments.
2) I have neither the time nor expertise to define the “mission.” but what you present is a false choice, I don’t not need to define what constitutes the “mission” in order to show point number 2 above.
I need to get back to work now….it has been swell.
“Solution: blow up the Mission district. It’s what the locals want, apparently.”
Nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure that one’s hipster street cred is never impinged upon by anyone who might have aspirations beyond getting a rough hand-job from the token-female bass-player of a band no one will ever hear of after the release of their first EP (7″ vinyl only).
The Mission doesn’t appear to have one, beyond self-destruction for the sake of preservation. Go figure.
http://sf.curbed.com/archives/2009/03/10/mission_vs_mission.php
i love the internet….ok really got to work now.
Oh shit yeah, we made it big time. Curbed just posted something about the Mission that didn’t have to do with a fancy restaurant or AA.
I like hearing that I’m not the only one who will buy a pair of jeans and wear them without washing them for several months on end. I can’t stand a freshly washed pair of jeans. I like the way un-washed denim wears and fits your body the more you wear them.
skeet skeet!
Is the issue here that SE doesn’t cater to locals? Last I checked, San Francisco is fucking tiny. I’m sure people come from all over the place just in San Francisco to patronize the joint.
I don’t think there’s any fronting on Self Edge’s part vis a vis blue-collar vibe. They know who their clientele is and you don’t. If they say that poor people save for a year to buy the jeans, I’d buy it. But more broadly the whole blue-collar thing has to do with WHERE THE CLOTHES COME FROM. This apparel is based on, and often used for, workwear which is used for essentially blue-collar activity.
Nobody is forcing anyone to shop there, so you can hardly claim that Kiya is raping anyone’s income. He’s a small independent business owner who loves the neighborhood, and if you think that he’s not PAYING a ton of money for the clothing to begin with (think small margins) then you’re nuts.
Bodah, seems like your fight is with capitalism generally. Capitalism exploits people for profit, it sucks, but that’s where we are and how we live for the time being. I’ve never been, but it doesn’t sound like Self Edge is engaging in rampant cultural imperialism or mass gentrification. Kiya seems to have an unstoppable work ethic, if he wanted to accomplish those kinds of goals, he probably could. He could also be on Wall Street really raping the world’s resources for a much better profit. $300 pants in a “historically” blue-collar neighborhood, perfect? No, but really not worth complaining about either.
Didn’t the SE guys just have a massive party weekend too? Kinda stupid to take twitter quotes from a blow out weekend.
Guys – neighborhoods change. Nothing ever stays the same. The mission is never going to be the same today as it was 20 or 50 or 100 years ago nor will it be the same 20 50 or 100 years from now. Life goes on, get over it.
so you don’t like the expensive jeans?
enjoy your dockers. and thank the 8 year old vietnamese kid who stitched ‘em together for you on the way out, ya douche.
lol @ this thread.
Exactly. While I have problems with some of Self Edge’s prices, everyone here singing the praises of $60 jeans is supporting a environmentally / socially shitty supply and manufacture chain and sweatshops / union-busting. So while you’re patting yourself on the back for being ‘anti-consumer’, pull your head out of your ass as well. Fucking San Francisco.
Wow. This thread pretty much exemplifies what I don’t like about San Francisco. The first time I went to the Mission was 1989 and it was pretty fucking great. I went back in 1995 and was bummed to see the recent-college-grad-levi-cord-wearing kids all over the place, trying to be “real”. Whose business is it how much money Kiya makes? What does “hire local” mean? Does that apply just because you live there “now”? What version of the Mission are you trying to keep alive? The way I see it, if you got to the Mission after 1990 you should just shut the fuck up because you are the problem. This Mission sounds just like Silverlake or Echo Park here in LA-it thinks it’s way cooler than it is.
I don’t see what Kiya sells as expensive for what it is. I have ordered from him. I will again. I don’t think I will go to the store itself though. Unless…Are the dealers still out on the corners, or did you fuck that up too?
I really think some people commenting here are wearing jeans that a just a bit too tight. I don’t think any grand philosophical conclusions can be drawn from Self Edge. I mean, really, it is just a store. I went in there once and decided that the jeans were not my style and way too expensive. But other people like them, and Kiya has built a business. Good for Kiya; end of story.
skinny jeans || die();
Self Edge is the reason I am poor.
KIYA
I have a couple of questions and I want you to answer honestly.
I was browsing through your website and notice a Flat head polo “palms label polo”. It was $170.00. The same price for a Flat head Navy Chambray shirt. My question is,
what makes these shirts so “expensive”?
what is the cost break down?
what is the cost break down for jeans?
I hope none of you go to Rituals, Four Barrel and Bi-rite!
Smokey,
Email me at Kiya (at) selfedge.com…
Come in when i’m there and i’d love to show you why this stuff is this pricey and also share with you why and how we have such slim margins on this stuff compared to every other boutique in the country.
To give you a quick rundown, we import these items OURSELVES, there is no distributor and therefore no bulk buying or shipping discounts.
Shipping is $355 per box of fifteen items shipped via private courier (NISSIN), tax/duties/customs is 16.9% BASE (that’s for denim/cotton that has no animal leathers beyond tagging) then about 4% in other taxes (all tacked onto the wholesale price), then between 2$ and 6$ per item, then about $45 per box for “brokerage fees”, then $10 to $30 for “airport landing fees” per box.
Do the math.
Kiya, I hope the publicity from this controversy helps sales.
Looking forward to getting my order.
If they ever run you out of the Mission, you can join us up here in Rain City, USA . . .
I have been a long time admirer of Self Edge and have a number of their products. I live all the way on the other coast.
Kiya and Gordon from Blue and Green put a product on the street that just doesn’t exist in the USA anymore, its sad but its true.
Until I shopped with these two guys I was in the same boat as the rest of the haters on here. I rocked Levi’s and a personal favorite pair from Old Navy that cost $8. Did they fit? kinda, did they cover me, yeah, but they don’t last.
Is Kiya making a good living? I sure hope so. I hope he took the profit on the $275 pair of Selfedge/Superfuture/Dry Bones jeans I bought last week and got himself some crack, booze, hookers (no offense to Mrs. Kiya) or the down-payment on a gold plated toilet seat. This is still America, you don’t want it, don’t buy it. But this guy is ENTITLED to make as much money as he wants to if he is being honest and fair.
My first pair of japanese denim came to me when I was still in school, it was worth $200 then and its worth it now that I make more than my parents. But thats every individual’s call.
Kiya I hope you are in business forever, I only hope to one day have a collection that does you proud.
May you use the profit you make off my purchases to indulge your every frivolous whim. Get Ms. Kiya something nice too.
Kiya,
Thanks for the posting. There is no way am I offended by the prices that you sell at your store as I am buyer of quality products myself. I have been a customer of yours before and I will in the future. Like I said in my previous posts, I have nothing against Self Edge, Kiya, BLue In green, or the “enflated” prices that people say it is.
The point was to really show why they are worth so much. For the viewers and for my own knowledge. And I was hoping you’d give the run down on the material cost, how much the denim is worth, buttons, and so forth and why they are priced now. And what is the man labor like to produce these products. That’s what I really want to know, the man behind making the products. And just not necessarily your store. I mean even if you want to buy Flat head products or any denim products from Rakuten, the same shirt cost roughly $140.00 USD. So if you say you don’t make a huge profit by selling these products, I’d believe you. But in my opinion, it’s not so much about the profit but more of providing and sharing these products to people with similar taste and enthusiasm for these products.
I buy japanese products from self edge, blue in green, rakuten because I believe they are quality products that are made with enthusiasm and passion.I WOULD LOVE to talk to you about denim and the products at your store or any japanese quality products as I’m super emphatic about this kind of shit, but you’re never there when I drop in. Luckily I don’t live too far away, but I always wanted to talk to you about opening a small shop of my own for my own local community. But don’t know if that will end in a hostile note.
kudos for kiya for enduring this ridiculous inquisition. truly, truly well beyond the call of duty for anyone running multiple businesses.
now, seriously kiya, can you post your personal credit card bill here so we can really get comfortable with your everyday habits, and juxtapose those against our feelings about pants? i think that would really build a sense of community….
birth certificate would be nice too. i’d like to compare it to how i feel about shirts. maybe do a little art project, or interpretive dance piece. that one’s just for me.
Thought I should pitch in on this one.
This is healthy discussion and some points are very uneducated and are formed as puberty mood-swings tiffs, but most comments are posing good questions and tactful rhetoric.
As one of the employees at Self Edge (a local), I live around the block, I drink coffee from everywhere because the Mission has delicious coffee everywhere, from 14th to 24th ST…I buy my groceries mostly from Mi Ranchita on Mission x Sycamore, or other small markets (even Bi-Rite because they have hard to find quality shit) and frequent pretty much every bar, restaurant, live venue shows, punk house shows, and fuck I even give people alcohol and food at my own place when throwing music/art shows out of my garage in Clarion Ally. I support my neighborhood, just as Kiya does.
Point being, to live in the mission means to be able to experience all of this. Self Edge proves that the Mission can still offer more. Let’s be honest, the Mission has been changing ever since Willy Brown came in to the SF office. Thus bringing in higher rent control and options for even larger companies such as Sketchers on Mission to set up shop. Self Edge finally gives this once punk, diy, and now clearly gentrified area something to look forward to. For example, who the fuck made it ok for a 5 story condo complex to go right next to our store??? Probably that asshole Newsome. Definitely not us holmes. We have nothing to do with the large scale building changes which are the real fucking problems with the Mission. In fact we are supporting so much that “was” the mission…by taking over a rundown business and giving a historical retail space a new and thriving face for the future. Fuck your self-righteous arguments and nay-saying on quality product. I dare any of you to visit the WORK SHOPS in Japan where our products are made, and then visit your beloved Levi’s sweatshops in god-knows-where Asia. Then try to tell us we are gentrifying and hurting the businesses in the Mission. It’s time to grow and keep this beautiful neighborhood alive. It’s time for people who were the punks to start making businesses that reflect their passions… and at last making it a possibility for the Mission to stay somewhat intact with conscious and kind businesses.
Thank you.
@clay – impassioned post. well said & personally, i mostly agree.
that said, i’d argue “the real fucking problem with the Mission” is the complete lack of a current and inclusive voice in city politics, and a backward, dated, hollow, ineffective, corrupt notion of “progressive activism” that has consistently defined / hobbled the neighborhood.
a condo development on your corner is decidedly NOT “the real fucking problem with the Mission”(though i do agree 5 stories on that corner is silly).
more than likely, some of the folks that live in those condos will shop your store.
Self Edge is part of the changes our hood has seen and will see – a good part – but don’t think you’re not.
and as you say, your part of the change is positive. be proud of it. change is inevitable. change is good. change is (if managed & considered) progress, particularly in the mission.
@zinzin agreed on the real problem being that most people who really have something to say, don’t. And the best solution to this problem would be for them or even I to contribute to the council meetings that make or break 5 story condos possible for the landscape of the Mission.
I understand that this complex next to our store will bring in clientele, but I want it to be known that this type of clientele is not our main focus. Many people in this post think this is who were are catering to, but really our intention is to accommodate for any walk of life that walks into our store. I am proud of our lack of judgment and relentless passion to get ANYONE just as enthusiastic about our products just as much as we are.
@zinzin agreed on the real problem being that most people who really have something to say, don’t. And the best solution to this problem would be for them or even I to contribute to the council meetings that make or break 5 story condos possible for the landscape of the Mission.
I understand that this complex next to our store will bring in clientele, but I want it to be known that this type of clientele is not our main focus. Many people in this post think this is who were are catering to, but really our intention is to accommodate for any walk of life that walks into our store. I am proud of our lack of judgment and relentless passion to get ANYONE just as enthusiastic about our products just as much as we are.
sorry for the double post, I accidentally posted as Kiya
Yo, I don’t live in the mission, but I searched for apartments there once. They averaged 2500 for a 1 bedroom. How you people gonna complain about people charging “too much” for some jeans when you live in a ridiculously priced neighborhood. I’d much rather have a pair of jeans that I can clearly see the superior quality of, then pay 5 times as much for rent as I do now just to have the same 4 damn walls and say I live in “the mission”
Yo, I don’t live in the mission, but I searched for apartments there once. They averaged 2500 for a 1 bedroom. How you people gonna complain about people charging “too much” for some jeans when you live in a ridiculously priced neighborhood. I’d much rather have a pair of jeans that I can clearly see the superior quality of, then pay 5 times as much for rent as I do now just to have the same 4 damn walls and say I live in “the mission”
No one. Absolutely no one I know pays that much for a 1br apt anywhere from 14th st to Cesar Chavez. nice blanket comment ian.
@kiya / clay – sorry if i mis-stated…i wasn’t trying to say that y’all cater ONLY to the newly arrived condo crowd, or that you’re aligned in any way with them, good or bad. obviously ALL KINDS of people love your store & product…just look at the support in these posts.
i’m just saying that, for the most part, development in our hood is a good thing – not “the thing that’s wrong” – and that you all should be PROUD of your accomplishments and place in our changing community.
imho, condos with tax-paying, potentially-jeans-buying humans that might actually give a fuck about the mission, are CLEARLY better for the hood than derelict parking lots in an area thick with public transpo.
maybe not as good as a big block of housing slated for first-time buyers (which these will likely not be)….but still good.
@zinzin oh for sure. I actually did not disagree with anything you said. I was just ranting more
I think we are on the same page.
This is one of the best and worst dialogues I’ve read in a really long time. I have to echo ZinZin’s praise for Kiya keeping a cool head amongst some of the most ignorant and arrogant posts following the article. Asking Kiya to break down his margins on his products is incredibly tacky. The products at Self Edge carry a specific pricepoint because they are what they are. If you don’t get why a garment should retail for a specific price that’s fine, do some research if you want to know, or just don’t buy them, but insinuating that Kiya or Self Edge are “taking advantage” of a consumer is absurd. It borders on complete imcompetence, and I’m talking to you “Bodah”. Every person has something they enjoy, whether it be denim, wine, a car, a book, whatever. It’s up to that person to determine the value of the good, and if it’s worth it to them to get it. To call someone out, or put them down because they enjoy a specific product (whether or not you can personally afford it), is ridiculous. Nobody is making you buy it or not buy it. It’s a customer’s decision. I’m not going to tell you it’s dumb to spend $5,000 of a piece of artwork, because what you choose to spend your money on is your decision and doesn’t impact me. Kiya operates a store for a clientele that obviously exists and demands his products, and it doesn’t matter if you like it or not. It is what it is. You don’t have a “right” to buy his goods, you have a privelage to purchase them at the price Kiya and his consumer agree upon, so let’s lay off the whole “poor blue collar worker” thing. It’s so tired. Kiya, glad to see you be successful doing what you love. Bodah (and others), I’m sorry that you have nothing at all better to do. Get a hobby (or maybe just a better paying job).
Sorry, i’d rather have the dirty sex-tape store back than some denim-clad hipsters with more $$ than brains.
@agent_torpor Self Edge is kind of a dirty sex-tape store. I’ll give you a reacharound if you promise to ask nicely.
Thank you for your sharing.It is very nice post.I like it so much.
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